I doubt that the "Red Seal" label on 7" records was issued long before November 1902, when Emile Berliners European main patent of 1887 expired, and the then obsolete patent stamp ("E. Berliner's Gramophone, Covered by English and Continental Patents") demanded a redesign.

You have cited Mr. Petts remark that "The 7-inch Red Label discs were issued in May 1902" but I haven't seen any evidence for his claim. Did you?

Stephan

This is an interesting area that needs some further study: the label shown certainly appears to be a *later* version of the 'red seal' design. I think you'll find that the label (a) is fairly small -- about 62mm (as on the 7-inch black G&T discs) -- and (b) has a small rim around the edge (I think I can just see that in the picture). The disc will also show a stamper number (perhaps III ?) next to the catalogue number in the black area.

The same small 'red seal' design also appears on 54757 (Primo Vitti, Roma, April 1902), with similar (sans-serif) lettering around the edge. Here, though, the label is on a standard raised centre area instead.

The earlier design of 'red seal' labels for 7-inch discs was very much bigger (around 78mm) and completely *flush* with the record surface, and with larger (serif) lettering. Pressings I have seen all have a stamper number II.

I have not seen any 7-inch red-label discs without the 'angel' back -- which in itself means a pressing of at least April 1902, when that was introduced. So it might be that the red labels were indeed added at that time. Earlier pressings of these discs that I have seen are in Berliner form, without angel back and also with no stamper number (II or III).

The 7-inch 'ordinary' Berliner pressings lasted until perhaps August 1902, so the *black* labels didn't appear on them until quite late. 10-inch discs, however were getting labels by late 1901.

Lastly, the earlier Berliner versions of these 'red seal' discs that I have seen show 'Reproduced in Hanover' on the back, and the red-label versions show 'Reproduced in Russia' -- so that may help to date the change, too. I would guess that the red labels were added to these 7-inch Berliners (of Figner and Vyaltseva) indeed around May 1902 or so, depending on when the Russian pressing plant was started.

A later comment: I've now checked through a number of Russian 7-inch discs, and can find only one that has an angel back *and* 'Reproduced in Hanover'. All my other Russian 7-inch discs with an angel back say 'Reproduced in Russia'. The exception is one of the very first (temporary) angel designs from April 1902 that have the word GRAMMOPHON (instead of GRAMOPHONE) displayed twice around the angel design. (The factory at Hanover were told to correct that immediately by the London office, apparently; so there are not so many discs at all with that version of the angel back.)

On the other hand, one of my very few 10-inch Russian discs has an angel back *and* 'Reproduced in Hanover', so we need some more data from the 10-inch size, I think. And to put the cat amongst the pigeons (as we say), I'm sorry to say that this 10-inch disc (22551, Morskoi) is without paper label -- it's a Berliner...

Peter

Peter, could you please post a large flush red label on 7" discs. Does it also carry the phrase "RED SEAL"?

I only have a black label version of Primo Vitti, stamper VII or so. At least it came with its contemporary dealer-envelope, with German handwriting of the title information.

How do you know that the angel back was introduced in April 1902 and the Berliner pressings lasted until ca. August 1902? Are these informations derived from recording dates?

I have a Sobinov 7" Berliner "reproduced in Russia." Is it possible that the paper label was introduced in Russia at a later date?

Some years ago, Nauck sold a Vialtseva 10" Berliner which probably reached the market late January/early February 1902. How does this fit to an introduction date of the paper label in late 1901?

Stephan

Later comment: Primo Vitti is stamper IIII. By the way, what's the explanation why the Gramophone Co. differs from the Roman notation in this case? It should be IV, of course.

My Sobinov Berliner carries an angel and the "correct" spelling "GRAMOPHONE" on back.

I'll try and see what I can do -- but I am about to go away on holiday in a few days, and may not be able to do the work necessary to make a readable scan before I go. These flush labels get badly rubbed.

Angel back: Leonard Petts told me years ago that they appeared in April 1902, and that the first GRAMMOPHON attempt was replaced within a few weeks.

He also mentioned the introduction of the 7-inch paper label in September 1902 (at least for the black labels). The latest disc I have in Berliner form is estimated to be recorded in June 1902.

Early paper labels on 10-inch discs: maybe these happened earlier over here. British 10-inch Berliners are almost unheard of, and always date to before summer 1901. The late 1901 London discs always come with paper labels. Maybe the Russian discs kept the old format longer? Anyway, even if the Vialtseva disc was recorded in (say) Nov/Dec 1901, it wouldn't 'reach the market' until early 1902, I suppose. It might even date back to about October 1901.

About the Sobinov 7-inch Berliner: as far as I know the only 7-inch Russian discs to have red labels were by Figner and Vyaltseva. The others (Sobinov included!) had to make do with the Berliner format.

Just remembered another thing: I have one Berliner (22347, Ekimov) that has no angel -- nor 'Reproduced in Hanover', nor 'Reproduced in Russia'! Just a completely plain back, it seems. I cannot believe that this was just an accident at the factory...

Peter

Comments for Berliners

My holdings are rather simple,

Berliner E2042 14 20-9-98 London no Angels front or back
Berliner 2354 1173 4-2-99 London no Angel REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 7921 1855 6-4-99 London Angel front left REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 35048 3325 -7-99 Paris Angel front left REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 24 3865 -8-99 London Angel front left REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 52561 2786 -7-99 Milano Angel front left REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 2147Z 4370 29-11-99 London Angel front left reverse totally blank
Berliner 40648 559a -2-00 Berlin Angel front left reverse totally blank
Berliner 50049X 898 -7-00 Milan Angel front left REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 32907 1214 G 24-8-00 Paris Angel front top REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 661 2657a 24-11-00 London Angel front top REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 152 2361a 11-3-01 London Angel front left and full reverse
REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 57X 2795 16-5-01 London same as above
Berliner 30036 3644 8/9-01 Paris Angel front left REPRODUCED IN HANOVER
Berliner 38037 3827 8/9/01 Paris same as above
Berliner 30092X 208F 1/ 2-02 Paris Angel front left and full reverse

Berliner 22519 263-nB 15 -6-01 Moscow Angel front left and full reverse
REPRODUCED IN RUSSIA

These seem to indicate that REPRODUCED IN HANOVER was place on the reverse in about April 1899, while the Angel on the front left followed shortly after. The Angel was apparently placed wherever it provided the most necessary space. The contents and formats of the central area seemed to vary according to the whims of the recording engineers, viz., in London, Paris, Berlin, and Moscow.

Peter and Stephan, I hope I may join in this discussion, which is one of my pets. The Figner 22601 image was cropped from a collage of labels, sent to me by a person now unknown to me. I don't own the record, unfortunately, but Larry Holdridge seems to remember selling one several years ago. I would venture to say that this label was earlier, rather than later, and that it and the Vialtseva 23130 were probably the first two G&T recordings to be issued with Red Seal labels, which was then almost immediately changed to GRAMOPHONE CONCERT RECORD for 10". You will note that all of the Chaliapins from his first G&T session in late January have such labels, and all are 107mm in diameter, as were all of the first 10" Red labels. I have a Figner G.C.-22596x, second take, second stamper, recorded in 1902, date unknown, diameter 92 mm, which is about that seen in use in March-April 1902. A Vialtseva G.C.-23130 from December 1901 has a flush label 107mm diameter. This appears to be the largest size ever used by G&T for 10" discs. An interest label is a Vialtseva G.C.-23406 from a 1905 recording, but the label is only 85 mm. The Figner G.C.-22547 with overprint, seen elsewhere on this website, also has an 85 mm diameter. Note also that neither the first Chaliapins or the 1901 Vialtseva have Angel backs. On the other hand, my Sobinov Berliner G.C.-22519, recorded in June 1901, has an Angel back!

I also have a pair of Renaud G.C.-32077. Both black and red labels are 107mm diameter, but only the Red label has an Angel back. On the other hand, my pair of Renaud G.C.-32084 both have flush labels 107mm diameter, and BOTH have Angel backs! I would place their issue BEFORE April 1902, possibly even in late 1901. What do you think?

Usually, G&Ts with 107 mm label don't have an Angel back. Renaud is an exception, probably because the black label of late 1901 needed to be overlapped on unsold copies in mid-1902 when Renaud received red label status.

As Peter already pointed out, the typeface on Figner 22601 isn't late 1901 or even early 1902 for sure! Peter will hopefully soon post an earlier version for comparison.

Chaliapin recorded in January 1902, but, in order to date the label, we need to know when his records reached the market.

>>Later comment: Primo Vitti is stamper IIII. By the way, what's the explanation why the Gramophone Co. differs from the Roman notation in this case? It should be IV, of course. <<
I'm not sure who posted this comment, but whoever it was should be aware that British and European usage of Roman numerals generally used IIII rather than IV, e.g., XIIII v XIV, XXIIII v XXIV, etc. I have found a G.C.-52439 with IV, but that is obviously an exception.

Peter, regarding your comment above, if you have Red Label 7" Figners and/or Vyaltzeva, I would be very grateful if you could send me some scans.
I find it hard to believe that the Sobinov 22519 recording, made in June 1901, was not issued for almost a year or more! This is equally true of the Figner and Vyaltzeva recordings made in December 1901. Why would they have been issued with labels AFTER the Caruso recordings of April 1902?

Peter, you say that this Red Label appears to be a "later" design. Why could it not be the earliest design, since it was used for both the Figner and the Vyaltseva 7" issues recorded in December 1901, and apparently was never used again? The Chaliapin recordings of late January 1902 were all issued with regular Red label designs, probably in February. It seems incongruous that G&T would go to the trouble of recording these great artists, and then delaying the issuance of their recordings by many months.